Author Topic: Using kuka 210 to carve in marble - Total costs  (Read 1646 times)

jamil

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Using kuka 210 to carve in marble - Total costs
« on: December 09, 2017, 04:29:20 PM »
hi Im Jim from Sydney Australia
Im  looking to purchase a KUKA KR210 ROBOT 6 AXIS + KRC2 CONTROLLER turn table all  refurbished if possibler and  for milling with a HSD spindle with automatic tool change.
Im interested in using the robot to carve in marble I would like to keep costs down  . Can I purchase any kuka Robot or do I need to look at a particular model eg kr200 kr 180 kr 240 what's the difference for my application does it matter ?I would like a HSD Spindle with 5 pcs  tool holders  for tools with diameter up to 20mm - and 19pcs collet set. can you let me know where can I purchase this or similar spindle  from ? and what prices am I looking at ? also can I connect it to the robot or do I need someone qualified can you recommend someone in Australia.?I would like a table as a 7th axis maximum weight I would use would be about 1000kg what table would you recommend and how much would that cost also is  there a need for any other additions to the KRC2, or do those controllers come already able to connect to a 7th axis by default? If not, what are the extra components needed. Regards setting every thing up if I purchase everything my self can you recommend some one to help connect everything together.
Also what is the most affordable software to use I've heard or Sprutcam how much would that COST?
finally if there's anything  else  I need to know regards setting up pleases do let me know
thankyou
thankyou
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 03:29:26 PM by Johannes @ Robots in Architecture »

Johannes @ Robots in Architecture

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Re: using kuka 210 to carve in marble
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 03:28:53 PM »
Hello Jim,

I can't answer all your questions, but I'll try to cover as much ground as possible. Basically a larger milling spindle is going to weigh around 30kg, so all the robots that you suggested can support it. However, there are dynamic forces happening, and the stiffer the robot, the more accurate the toolpath will be. So I would definitely go for the heaviest robot you can get. You don't really need the speed anyway. Turntables are nice, and 1ton should not be a problem for most turntables. Note that you need a turntable with a KUKA motor, if you want to move it synchronized with the robot.
Costwise you are probably looking at around 20k EUR for a used robot with turntable, if you buy it from KUKA with warranty it's more like 30k EUR and new 95k EUR - or at least somewhere in that neighborhood. It obviously depends on the age, operating hours etc. Global Robots in the UK build affordable turntables out of old KUKA motors, and also sell used robots - you could get in touch with them.
A nice spindle from HSD will be around 4k EUR, with another 1k for the inverter, plus at least another 2k for your accessories and smaller stuff like cables.
Don't forget that you may need extra safety equipment (fence, special doors...), and possibly pay someone to certify the installation, if legally necessary.

Software-wise there is a large range to choose from - from software like Autodesk Fusion 360 which is nearly free, to integrated robot milling solutions that will cost more than your robot.

Personally I like using Autodesk Fusion at university, because all the students can use it for free, and it's easy to learn with a large community. You cannot simulate a robot, but you can export the toolpaths into KUKA|prc/Grasshopper and then simulate the robot movement.

SprutCAM is probably the cheapest way if you want to use a single software environment. Note that in some cases you will also need to pay for the integration of your robot model etc.
High-end solutions that I've seen used with robots are HyperMill (with KUKA CAMRob for the robot), PowerMill (with PowerRobot) and MasterCAM (with RobotMaster).
That being said, while we have worked with granite and sandstone before, I don't have any experience with milling marble and cannot tell you which software will be best suited. The last stone company we worked with used HyperMill.
But you could get started with a cheap software like Fusion, and once you are earning money with it, upgrade to a more professional solution.

I cannot really recommend you an integrator in Australia, my suggestion would be to get in touch with the universities in Sydney that are using KUKA robots and ask for their experiences, e.g. contact the architectural fabrication labs at UNSW, USydney and TU Sydney. Maybe they can also provide some knowledge transfer - I often have companies at my lab that want to get a brief into robotics, which often results in nice research projects.

And of course get in touch with KUKA Australia, they will also be able to point you towards integrators and may have used robots in stock themselves.

Hope that helps!
Best,
Johannes


P.S.: I slightly edited your titel by adding "total costs" to make the conversation easier to find for people who might be looking for similar information, but not for marble.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 03:30:27 PM by Johannes @ Robots in Architecture »

jamil

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Re: Using kuka 210 to carve in marble - Total costs
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2017, 05:44:21 PM »
ok thankyou for all that it helps a lot ,I will let you know how I go :)

Johannes @ Robots in Architecture

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Re: Using kuka 210 to carve in marble - Total costs
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 05:49:20 PM »
All the best with the project!
But do consider that prices - in general - may be higher in Australia. I can only speak from my experience in Austria (!). So if you get a higher quote, it does not necessarily mean that someone is trying to rip you off ;)

Best,
Johannes
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 06:04:46 PM by Johannes @ Robots in Architecture »

jamil

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Re: Using kuka 210 to carve in marble - Total costs
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2017, 12:14:46 PM »
true thankyou for that tip :)
regards the spindle can you tell me how Meany  kw was the spindle you used to work on the granite. marble is softer then granite would 9kw or 7.5 kw be enough or should I go all the way to 16kw

Johannes @ Robots in Architecture

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Re: Using kuka 210 to carve in marble - Total costs
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2017, 06:09:53 PM »
That spindle was massive, at least 16kW on a KUKA Titan robot. But I don't really think that such a high-end solution is really a requirement in most cases - we have milled wood quite successfully with a 6kg payload robot and a 150EUR spindle ;)
Then again, it seems that spindles don't get that much more expensive with increasing power. At my lab, the limit was actually the power supply as the electrician could not guarantee that our "grid"  could take two robots plus the spindle, so we had to downscale it to ~8kW.

Best,
Johannes

jamil

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Re: Using kuka 210 to carve in marble - Total costs
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2017, 06:16:15 AM »
regards the electricity supply needed please can you tell me what I need to know whats needed to run the kuka kr200 robot the 9kw spindle and the control ;)

Johannes @ Robots in Architecture

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Re: Using kuka 210 to carve in marble - Total costs
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2017, 07:46:37 AM »
The power draw depends on the robot, but the fuses for KRC4 should be 3x25A according to the manual. A 32A plug should be fine.
For the spindle it's easier, because you know the kW anyway. So with a 9kW spindle you may want to take a 12kW inverter, so at 380V you're looking at a 32A requirement. More than 32A are not that common in non-industrial buildings, at least around here.

The most common problem we nearly always encounter when setting up a robot somewhere new, is the circuit breaker, which should work at 0.3A, rather than the more common 0.03A. Otherwise the robot will start, but once you try to move it the circuit breaker will trigger. Of course, 0.3A are more dangerous, so be particularly careful around any such outlets.

That being said, I'm not an electronics expert, so double-check whatever I'm writing.

Best,
Johannes